Question about punitive system/TOS.

  • Would like to clarify, what is gamigo's position in regards to glitch abusers and scammers? Those, whose guilt is documented and provable via videos or screens.

    Quite a lot of times I have observed those atrocities walking away unharmed without even getting week/month ban, despite being caught at spot.
    And as far as I remember, gamigo stated that scam/fraud cases of gifting wont be investigated and players are pretty much on their own. Confirm if I am correct.

    Funny enough though, saw some people who got bans for sharing information about scammers/glitchers for "blacklisting". So, scamming and glitching is okay, but calling atrocities names they deserve is illegal?

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171

  • Hello -Yaseeda-


    The game rules are in this thread: https://fiesta.gamigo.com/forum/index.php?thread/7872-in-game-rules/&postID=86642#post86642

    From this, you can Gamigo's stance on glitch abusers and scammers:


    Glitch abusers

    7. Bug Abuse

    • Bugs are errors or faults in the game that produce an incorrect or unexpected result or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Abusing it, or intentionally triggering bugs for personal gain is prohibited.


      Players are encouraged to report bugs on the forum, to the in-game team, or to support.

    9. Cheating

    • Manipulating the game files or using third-party programs to modify gameplay is prohibited, UI Reskins are the only officially allowed modification of game files.
    • Leeching in a Kingdom Quest by going AFK or being on follow for a majority of the time during this Kingdom Quest is considered cheating as well.



    Scammers

    5. Behaviour/ Harassment

    • In-game behavior that negatively affects other players' ability to enjoy the game in the way it is intended is prohibited.


      Preventing players from exiting a map when they want to, for example within a free battle zone, is considered harassment.


    10. Accounts

    • 10a. Asking other players for their account details (usernames and/or passwords) or sharing your account details with anyone else is prohibited. Gamigo staff will never ask you for your account password. This includes allowing other players to use or have access to your account.



    Punishments

    13. Means of punishment

    • In general, the following actions will be taken for each rule infraction.
      • Official warning
      • Timed Ban
      • Permanent ban

      Each infraction will be investigated by a Game Master or Gamigo staff member and appropriate action will be taken. For privacy reason, we do not discuss the specific actions taken with other players. Multiple infractions will accumulate punishment and are not exclusive.

    Reasons for not 'getting a ban'

    - They were warned for the first offense

    - They were banned shortly but you don't see it

    - Your evidence was incorrect or incomplete. (This could be edited image/video, cropped image/video, not showing the game clock, or perhaps using youtube to upload the video. For more information check this guide: [Guide] - How to make a report)



    "Gamigo stated that scam/fraud cases of gifting wont be investigated and players are pretty much on their own."


    To be accurate, scam/fraud cases involving gifting will not be investigated because gifting is no longer against tos. As such, we now have a stance that gifting is done at your own risk. "Do at your own risk" means we will not take responsibility for your actions in choosing to get an item gifted to you in exchange for in game currency, or any other currency. We still do not encourage such activity at all.

    You can report scammers, and there will be consequences for scammers. However, your item(s) won't be returned, and we have not and will not be informing you about the outcome of the punishment decision.



    "Funny enough though, saw some people who got bans for sharing information about scammers/glitchers for "blacklisting". So, scamming and glitching is okay, but calling atrocities names they deserve is illegal?"


    Glitching and scamming is not okay, but calling people names and blacklisting fall into harassment and is also not okay. Here are the rules for harrassment:


    2. Mobbing

    • Intentionally manipulating or luring mobs to a certain location in order to get the mobs to attack other players is prohibited.

    3. Spot-claiming

    • It is not possible to claim exclusive rights to an area (spot-claiming) or claim ownership of mobs or resources (mines/herbs/etc).

    4. Kill-stealing

    • Attacking or using offensive skills on a mob that does not belong to you or your party members is prohibited.


      A mob is considered as belonging to you if you or someone in your party were the first to gain aggro or be targeted by a mob. If the mob is no longer targeting you or your party members, then the mob is open to being taken by another player or party, assuming that the loss of target was not the result of "kill-stealing".

      Exceptions apply to situations where all players are encouraged to assist in killing a mob, such as kingdom quests, server bosses and events.

      As long as there is only one group at a spot, they are allowed to take every mob they find. In the case that another group arrives, you must share the area.

    5. Behaviour/ Harassment

    • In-game behavior that negatively affects other players' ability to enjoy the game in the way it is intended is prohibited.


      Preventing players from exiting a map when they want to, for example within a free battle zone, is considered harassment.

    6. Chat

    • 6a. Using in-game chat to cause offense or nuisance is prohibited. This includes bad language, threats, and unnecessary spamming.
    • 6b. Using in-game chat to advertise websites that are not authorized by Gamigo, or discuss cheats is prohibited.


    Please do not break the rules by trying to 'take matters in your own hands'. This likely leads to both sides being punished. Always make sure your evidence are accurate and fits the criteria in our reporting guide.


    Thank you,

    HoneyTeddy

  • Thanks for detailed answer, part about "afking/leeching kqs" is new to me. Noted.

    However, few things I would like to clarify:
    1) Would be nice to know what kind of video formats you guys accept.
    AVI? MP4? FLV? MKV?
    Wouldnt want to waste time uploading files just to learn that format I have used is not supported by you.

    2) Not quite clear about scamming cases. I understood part about gifting for gems, but what about switching items during trading, putting in trade window wrong amount of cash last second, or cases of borrowing somebody's item and later refusing to return it?
    Is that reportable/punishable? Because thats clearly a theft/scam cases.

    3) How come some cases of glitching get overlooked?
    Examples:
    a) HOF glitching at raids about year ago. Using Cheat Engine to solo bosses. Clearly falls into "violation of TOS" category.
    b) Glitching Overbuff at raids/guild tournaments (stacking 25+ buffs and becoming immune to stuns/fears), occured 2-3 years ago.
    c) Trading sc items glitch which occured 5 years ago or so.

    4) You do realise that those who start "blacklisting" are usualy people unsatisfied/unhappy with feedback your company gives? And you dont return stole items, correct?
    I do not quite comprehend, for example, how would giving player, who has stolen 5k-10k gems just "a warning" sounds fair to you. In real world sum of stolen goods matters (In China they jail in real actually, if you get caught scamming something in game, google, will find few articles), do you take it into consideration as well?
    Would be nice to categorise/structurise punishment to scammers based on stolen sum.
    Example:
    -----------
    Below 50 gems> warning at first, next time ban.
    100+ gems> 1 month ban, next time permanent one.
    500+ gems> permanent ban.

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171

  • 2) Not quite clear about scamming cases. I understood part about gifting for gems, but what about switching items during trading, putting in trade window wrong amount of cash last second, or cases of borrowing somebody's item and later refusing to return it?
    Is that reportable/punishable? Because thats clearly a theft/scam cases.

    Pretty sure this falls under:


    8. Trading

    Conducting trade under false pretenses is prohibited. (...) we reserve the right to apply sanctions if we receive several complaints on the same player.

    I'm curious however if these situations warrant the return of said items/gold since they are not the same as gifting.

    Currently leveling: Djarka.


    Current activity: Semi-active.

  • 1. Any format that can be read on all or most devices (eg: windows computers, mac computers, andriod, ios) is fine. In this case, MP4 and AVI would suit the purpose fine. I've found that FLV and MVK doesn't run properly in a few cases so you might like to avoid that. It is not the file format more than the uploader or the actual content that there are usually issues with. Make sure the uploaded video is private (eg: only someone with the link can see it).


    2. That would fall into "cheating" or "glitching" the system so you can report someone who used a trade glitch. However switching out the numbers at the last second does not fall into trade glitch if the sum was locked and approved normally without any glitch, so please always check your trades before approving.
    Unfortunately 'not returning an item you lent them' isn't something we can help with so be careful about who you lend things to.


    3. In the case of HOF glitch, a large number of people were banned when it was fixed. We had a lot of noise about that one. "Overbuffing" was a system fault rather than player fault, you could overbuff without actually trying to overbuff. If it is the system's fault rather than player's fault it will most likely be overlooked.


    4. Understandably some people aren't happy with the decisions made, they should converse with the person in charge of the ticket via email reply, then talk directly to our CM (currently [CM]Veralya) about the outcome. There are a not a few number of cases where they were unable to provide proper evidence or have a case of both sides being in the wrong. It is not a very straightforward process.


    We will not compensate those who have decided to take part in 'shady' trades. Gifting and selling/trading services will be done at your own risk.

    Again I am not at liberty to talk about what decisions were made in terms of punishments or what criteria and I will not be commenting further on this.

  • In a nutshell, current rules flawed and in many cases let GMs decide the punishment, even if evidence is solid. Thats not good, humans tend to be overforgiving or plain biased.
    Your team overlooked some solid abusing when it meant punishing many people, Trade Glitch which allowed to trade sc items, was an obvious exploit, yet you guys picked to "forgive vast majority", and just gave those who didnt abuse glitch useless stateless Karen Plushie.

    Stateless. Plushie. Thats laughtable. Just because you were too lazy to properly track down and remove all traded items, or plain feared to ban some heavy sc users who mass traded skins between their accounts.

    ^ Clear example of unfair uproach, which caused quite an uproar back in the days.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Overbuff> sorry but when you clearly/openly ask somebody in guild tournament to NOT abuse overbuff, and yet person keeps rescrolling each time even after being purged by HK's Dispel, it clearly means person is ABUSING the bug. Actions should be taken.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    HOF glitching, yes , I know that few people got bans. Far not all though, but since I dont have access to actual statistics, lets presume you guys have punished "most abusive" ones, at least.

    WHAT I AM GETTING TO: Would be nice to exclude human factor from TOS, and actualy regulate kinds of punishments players will get for specific violations. I gave an example already, insta banning for theft of big sums, and so on.

    Because as of now gamigo picks to overlook many cases, even if player gathers all required evidence and proofs. Thats the reason why people ABUSE glitches as soon as new ones get discovered, nobody fears you, and knows that they can get away with any shit they will do.

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171

  • Hi Yas. haven't been in the whole testing/ quality management/customer relations environment in a long time, but posed to everyone interested in this topic,....could fear be translated as lack of respect? that seems to be the case not only for the company by players, but also among the general community. person to person it is hit and miss, but it comes down to track records.

    i've heard it is not allowed to make a record of known well established thieves of cheaters, however those are defined, but you're saying many of those same people are not being held accountable for their actions?

  • I think you don't realise, the GM team generally does not deal with the punishments for these types of reports, it is left to another team, so you don't have to worry about biased handling of cases. I have had a lot of feedback that the ticket support lacked a human element, which leads to a lot of people being unsatisfied with the response, so I don't think that is an issue, but actually the issue is with other factors, such as incomplete evidence or double kill evidence where both sides are at fault.


    We will not allow a 'list of cheaters' to be posted publicly, but you can still PM one of our team members or send the names in a ticket, with your evidence. A lot of the time people don't send reports and prefer to deal with these cases themselves. We cannot ban people without evidence, so if there are no reports, then it's likely no action will be taken.


    If the evidence was solid, action will be taken. If you have an issue with how your case was handled, please PM a CM. Do not post your case/evidence publicly as it will be removed as per forum rules.


    Thank you,

    HoneyTeddy

  • Another clarification, you guys do not accept proofs taken from skype/discord/facebook and other sources, right?

    Because that vastly limits potential of victims to report a problem. Lets take an abstract scenario:
    "Player A fooled player B and traded him wrong items/wrong amount of cash/took and never returned item.
    Then he confirms he stole that either in game or at other social sources".

    1) Testimony of a culprit counts as evidence? I remember Kobal saying that saying that your are "hacker" will be classified as proof, despite it being true or not, and punishment will follow.
    Does it work same way for scam cases?
    2) Testimony from social media count? If NO, check next question.

    3) You guys have access to chat and trade logs. Basically if player provides evidence (from social network), do you investigate those logs? Because you clearly can.
    -----------------------
    As for support, dont get me started. They literaly tell me that they cant help me or answer my questions in 75% cases.
    Example of me solving problem of one guildy who gave up on getting proper support from your team:
    http://shrine.50webs.com/Pics/gaymigocrap.jpg

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171

  • Probly because people monetarise videos and Gamigo too greedy to help people making few cents?

    Edit: So far TOS seems absurd and unfair, it defends rights of scammers and glitchers rather than rights of victims, and its disgusting. Basically, you are provoking people to steal, considering you dont return/refund stolen items, and most of times thief gets away with just a "warning".
    Clear example of law NOT being just. Yea, lets go and steal 1k+ gems, which will fund us for quite a long time, knowing that you more than likely just give me WARNING, and wont even take back stolen goods.

    Is it being done to keep server active/populated, or what? As diplomed manager I fail to see how keeping active community of scammers better than showing that you are willing and ready to enforce justice and punish criminals, and clean society in favor of honest players. Rotten community will attract only rotten people, while reasonable and just players will keep quitting.

    I dont feel protected at all with the way your TOS is written and upheld. Your TOS states that

    Quote


    In-game behavior that negatively affects other players' ability to enjoy the game in the way it is intended is prohibited.

    Well your TOS negatively affects ability of honest people to enjoy the game, unless you are claiming that creation of lawless ghetto is "intended"?

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171

    The post was edited 1 time, last by -Yaseeda- ().

  • Had to double post, because its getting pretty amusing at this point.

    You guys dont ban scammers, but ban ppl who roar warnings about scammers. A clear example of double standards and one sided perception of reality.
    Before you will tell that "some roarers lie and actually defame", I will stop u. Yes, I know.
    But not all. Bunch of ppl roars about legit scammers. But instead of talking to those people and investigating/banning scammers, you punish people who already suffered/got robbed.

    Anybody else is having cognitive dissonanse?

    One of oldest veterans of game, 2008+.
    Leader of oldest guild alive in game, BandOfTheHawk (2008+).
    Godliest free players alive, 0$ invested.

    Almost full cards collection.
    Author of numerous challenging videos and speed raids, top scorer of many GTs.
    Husband of a goddess.
    Facebook, Youtube, Site.... Find them on your own.

    ---------------

    And what did YOU achieve?

    About time to answer that question.

    -------------
    Discord: Yaseeda#3171