Buff Tricksters! Suggestions Please

  • Another rebalance is coming!

    Lets talk about Tricksters and the state that they are in


    (Disclaimer: I do not play a Reaper, just a Spectre. Please comment your suggestions below so I could add them here)


    This thread was originally just to rant about trickster animations but it evolved into something more


    What is the problem?


    Long animations


    Trickster skills have very long animations. Soul Trap and Harsh Blow have longer animations than even meteor strike. There is absolutely no reason why it should be so long. It is so long that it you would deal more damage auto attacking. Basic skills like lacerate, enfeeblement and venomous strike are also significantly longer than fighter/archer/mage skills that do similar damage. Also, Reaper 110 skill takes so long to cast that nobody uses it. So many have complained but they have never listened.


    Unkitable animations


    Most of our animations are unkitable. Other classes have a lot of kitable skills which helps them damage moving targets be it in PvE or PvP. For tricksters, if the target is moving, you can't hit it. This really detracts from the experience and it feel like there is something inherently broken about the class. We even have this skill called Force Slash which pushes away mobs from us ad stuns them for the duration they are being pushed back. But we cannot follow up that skill because our skills cannot be used when they are being pushed back.


    Ineffective Buffs / Debuffs


    We have quite a few buffs but the problem is they are all pretty much useless. First off, Detoxify and Styptic reduces so little of these effects at the higher levels it doesn't really do much. Nimble defense is supposed to help with our evasion, sounds great at first to avoid things like deva, but the skill doesn't have any more upgrades after level 95 and the effectiveness of this buff is either really small or none at all because I've never felt anything different when using the buff. Nimble defense cooldown is 7 minutes as well, so its pretty much useless. Diminish is broken at this point, it doesn't do anything to the curses.


    The debuffs are also pretty meh. Consume should increase the SP usage of the opponent but again, the amount of SP usage it adds is very little and basically useless when people are on extenders. I feel that this skill should be buffed heavily, make it sure that it really limits the skill the opponent can use. Venomous strike increases poison damage which sounds useful except that high level bosses and players have such high resists and that trickster's DoTs doesn't do much damage.


    DoTs take too much effort for too little reward


    Unlike Archers or Mages, Trickster DoTs require a soul (except for enfeeblement). This results in most trickster players not using the DoT part of Tricksters entirely as it takes two skills to inflict DoT and its not even a guaranteed source of damage because of the resist rates at higher levels. In my opinion, the poison/burn/bleed should come from our soul gathering skills just like enfeeblement. And, venomous strike should increase the damage and the time of all DoTs.


    Reaper + Spectre = Gladiator


    What is the point of a Trickster when a Gladiator can do everything we can do and maybe even better in some cases?


    They have comparable PvP kits to a Reaper with their dash and can catch a Mage/Archer easily, just like a Reaper.


    They have comparable/better damage than Spectres in a PvE environment like a raid.


    They have much better survivability than tricksters because of higher HP and def.


    So if a Gladiator can do everything a trickster can but with more HP and Def, what really is the point of a Trickster? I feel that a Reaper should be better than a Glad at PvP and a Spectre should be better than a Glad at taking down world bosses. This won't ruin Glads for anyone, they will still be good at many things, just not the best.


    Spectre passive is useless


    It actually is very useless. I don't see how a class with naturally high DEX can miss anything with good gears. Its kinda like the old warlock passive but worse because it doesn't even get activated 99% of the time. Give us a better passive please.



    ------------------------------------ old post below --------------------------------------------


    Hey guys! Since there will be another class rebalance on the horizon, I wanna bring up the issue of tricksters having extremely long skill animations and non kiteable skills.


    FIrst off, tricksters have very little kiteable skills, I play a spectre and the only kiteable skills i have is Intimidation and Flame Strike. And if I'm not wrong, Reapers have that one skill where its kiteable too. That's way too little for a melee class, every other melee class have way more kiteable skills than that. Its quite frustrating in both PvP and PvE as we would use force slash to push our enemies away but we can only use 1 skill for the entire stun duration because they are being pushed away from us and all the skills would say "The target is out of casting range". Also, for KQs like Bijou Sanctuary where everyone is running while killing the mobs, we can't use 90% of our kit so it feels like we are very useless in situations like these. I don't see why the skills have to be non kiteable as it just hurts the playability of the class and it doesn't really affect the balance of the game.


    Secondly, tricksters have extremely long skill animations. Probably the longest animations. For pretty basic skills.


    Soul Trap and Harsh Blow. These skills are pretty basic. One is to freeze the target and the other one just gathers 2 souls while dealing very little damage. But, the animation duration takes forever! It is like 3-4 seconds of your character dancing around doing no damage! To put it in perspective, a Wizard's meteor casts faster than these trickster skills. I can see why meteor needs a long casting time, because it deals 200% AOE damage, the trade off is worth it. But what is the excuse for soul trap and harsh blow?


    Force Slash. This is like our little mobility skill, only mobility skill if you're playing a Spectre. It would be great if you could make this skill faster as well. Even if we jump, we cannot escape something like deva because the animation is way too long.


    Reaper's 110 skill. They have complained about this so many times. The casting time is so long that it is not worth using the skill at all! Not in PvE, not even in PvP. Why does it have to be so long!?


    Every other skill. On the class page it states "Fastest Damage Dealing Class" as a strength. While in reality a fighter could go through 5 skills faster than a trickster can do 2-3. Fighters have extremely fast interruptable animations. While trix's animations are slow and unkiteable. Enfeeblement, Lacerate, Venomous Strike, all these skills are just basic skills but have long animations compared to even a Cleric's bash. It seems like there is a programmed delay after every skill, like a 0.5 second window of the character just taking a step back, waiting for things to happen.


    Thanks for reading this lengthy post! I hope these changes can be implemented, it would be a great quality of life improvement for tricksters!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by jaewaie: This thread evolved into a discussion about tricksters in general, I think it would be better to just put all the problems/suggestions here since there is a rebalance coming. ().

  • Fully agree!coin I would love to see a bit more fluidity in the trickster gameplay!

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  • except for kitable... that should stay with mages and archers. dual swords and claws have close combat range and i would like to see their skills mostly stick to that reality. Having dash in skills or something would okay but nothing like attacking from afar.

    By kitable he doesn't mean a longer range, just that it can be cast while moving and does not stop movement. The majority of fighter skills are this way, which makes it much smoother, while only a couple Trix skills are. Not to mention how long the animations are in general.

    Amikiir

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  • Very situational but I still agree with you


    For PvE, you don't really run around chasing mobs all the time other than mostly KQs. Everything else in the game however has less mobility than my grandma.

    Just sit still and smash keys. Very exciting


    As for PvP..Well it is extremely annoying. For a spectre especially is almost impossible to catch a mage or archer.

    Not to mention the pointless long animation on some skills that ironically drop your DPS

  • It's true that the animations slow down the class which leads to the DPS-drop u describe. That should be given a look for sure.


    Assasins are interesting pvp wise but I am curious when it comes to the damage difference between glads and spectres in pve. Do glads really deal much more damage in comparison to spectres?

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  • Depends

    I build my spectre to maximize damage. Full str, full dmg/crit suits (Just like glads) skin and whatever else you can think of I have done.


    It would take me like few hits to take aggro and never lose it.

    In DQ for example, karen would spam stun. If it was a glad then you could do 2 or 3 skills between stuns. As a spectre you can only get 1 or 2 skills off because of the long animation. Then naturally glad od spectre


    If it's in ToG, where mobs don't stun even if i get aggro then I usually od glads


    Not a reliable test however. As it is a small sample and no big variety

  • The chasing mob part can apply to things that aren't KQ as well. Some ranged monsters like Magrite runs away from you for for the duration they are running, you can't cast any skill. And yes, especially in pvp even though you're right next to them, you can't cast a skill half of the time and when you do, your entire character stops and you have to chase again. Talking about irony, isn't it ironic that fighters get an attack speed buff skill while trix doesn't?


    except for kitable... that should stay with mages and archers. dual swords and claws have close combat range and i would like to see their skills mostly stick to that reality. Having dash in skills or something would okay but nothing like attacking from afar.


    By kitable I don't mean ranged. No ranged attack sucks but I think most trixs can deal with not having it. It's about being able to run while using the skill. Fighters, and even clerics can run while attacking.


    It's true that the animations slow down the class which leads to the DPS-drop u describe. That should be given a look for sure.


    Assasins are interesting pvp wise but I am curious when it comes to the damage difference between glads and spectres in pve. Do glads really deal much more damage in comparison to spectres?

    And yes, dmg pve wise should depend on raid but imo a spectre will OD most of the time in a raid. Because in a raid, every debuff/buff is shared, so slash doesn't make a difference to a glad's output since it helps the entire pt. Only thing that a glad has is vit/passive. But again, I've never seen a glad go like 5% hp, they'll die from aoes and stuff.


    So I would say, based off aggro since more dmg = more aggro, that specs do deal more dmg than glads in raids, at the boss.

  • Fighters, and Clerics run between attacks, not while attacking. The problem with Tricksters (and why I hate them) is that you need to collect souls to get more damage to your attacks. You can run between attacks, but you might lose built up souls when you do. I am not sure how exactly it works, because I learned real fast that Tricksters did not fit into my playing style very well.

  • You collect souls on a target, but once you switch to other targets before the original target dies and you try to collect souls on it. You will lose whatever you had on the first target.


    And no I don't find it ironic that fighters get attack speed buff while tricksters don't.

    Tricksters don't need attack speed, they need shorter animations and being able to cast skills while moving.

  • Fighters, and Clerics run between attacks, not while attacking. The problem with Tricksters (and why I hate them) is that you need to collect souls to get more damage to your attacks. You can run between attacks, but you might lose built up souls when you do. I am not sure how exactly it works, because I learned real fast that Tricksters did not fit into my playing style very well.

    What I meant to say was. Fighters and clerics can cast a skill while moving. Their skills can execute while the character is moving, it's kitable. Trix skills cannot, it's a big issue.


    You collect souls on a target, but once you switch to other targets before the original target dies and you try to collect souls on it. You will lose whatever you had on the first target.


    And no I don't find it ironic that fighters get attack speed buff while tricksters don't.

    Tricksters don't need attack speed, they need shorter animations and being able to cast skills while moving.

    Yes that's very true. The animation speed is such a big issue. I don't get what they were thinking making it so long. There is literally no point in having it so long. The dmg is so little to begin with, why have it so long?


    Can we also have the cooldown of our buffs significantly reduced? Or just better buffs in general. Nimble defence is like 7 min CD for a tiny buff that I can't even feel the difference at 120. Does anyone have the exact numbers of nimble defence? And why is there a additional dmg thing on it? Does it boost the dmg?

  • Don't base DPS tests on aggro, since it seems spectre skills in particular gain a tonne of aggro. Use the inbuilt feature in a dungeon to compare. If it's in ToG, have the glad/spec sit out from clearing the floors and DPS on boss only so it's not skewed by aoe damage.


    relating to animation speed, I'm pretty sure I mentioned this as a failing point for trickster when rebalance was discussed years ago, but a lot of tricksters seemed to like the animations as they were (??) despite them being slow. With animation bug, tricksters are strong-overpowered, especially in pvp. Without it, they're subpar to gladiator in almost every way.

  • The sets effects need to be looked into. So many weird and useless effects that makes no sense.


    Also, about the buffs. I really don't think their buffs do anything really. I think one of them makes you take slightly less DOT damage which is barely noticeable really.

  • Don't base DPS tests on aggro, since it seems spectre skills in particular gain a tonne of aggro. Use the inbuilt feature in a dungeon to compare. If it's in ToG, have the glad/spec sit out from clearing the floors and DPS on boss only so it's not skewed by aoe damage.


    relating to animation speed, I'm pretty sure I mentioned this as a failing point for trickster when rebalance was discussed years ago, but a lot of tricksters seemed to like the animations as they were (??) despite them being slow. With animation bug, tricksters are strong-overpowered, especially in pvp. Without it, they're subpar to gladiator in almost every way.

    That seems like a good test!


    It just seems like they never listen to the constructive criticism from the community. I mean, whoever thought that reworking the attendance system was a good way to revive the game?


    Anyways, "subpar to gladiator in almost every way" is a really good point. Shouldn't every class have it's niche? Tricksters have always been about single target dmg. If a gladiator is doing everything better, wouldn't you agree that the balance is off and needs to be addressed?


    The sets effects need to be looked into. So many weird and useless effects that makes no sense.


    Also, about the buffs. I really don't think their buffs do anything really. I think one of them makes you take slightly less DOT damage which is barely noticeable really.

    Yea the buffs have a really long CD with negligible effects that I barely even touch them. And yea the set effects for some looks quite pointless like "increased duration of decay damage".


    Talking about effects, spectre passive is so useless that it's not even active 99% of the time. "Increase crit chance if you miss" but then tricks have such high aim it's nearly impossible to miss anything pve. Can we just have something like reaper's and call it a day?

  • few things i think need adressed


    sneak attack needs to be just as fast as concussive charge


    soul trap shouldnt require slow to use, it already requires souls and has a 20 second cooldown souls should be enough


    spectres diminish needs to work properly, and reduce the duration of all curses, including stifle/fear/stun/slow


    master scheme should be usable while running


    force slash aoe radius needs slightly increased to make it more user friendly


    spectres passive needs changed, possibly to increased damage or crit upon successful hits and missing removes the buff (stack to x3?) would make more sense for the passives name (shame)


    binding blow needs a more fluid animation (since the end of it locks your characters and makes skills unable to be used for 1 second)


    just a few ideas off the top of my head but yeah ~

  • I still do believe Trix OD any class. PVE wise my 60T can OD any class in md hc. My spec can OD at DQ and COC. I did ML normal last week and a spec OD 4 glads. Others kqs, Trix would be more of a support class just to help stun/ice the mobs like HRW kq.


    Animations. I don't see a problem with animations. First off y'all complained about harsh blow and soul trap doing m.dmg now y'all saying animations too long. I think they're fine as is. I collect souls just fine w.o harsh blow


    As for buffs, they all need a cd reduction. 7mins for nimble defense is EW.


    Quote

    soul trap shouldnt require slow to use, it already requires souls and has a 20 second cooldown souls should be enough


    If there is no slow, make it a stun then? Pointless to have enfeeblement with slow debuff.

  • Soul trap not requiring soul would be super nice. But I'm already hearing people being salty. "Oh that's faster than Deva, TOO OP".


    Yes! I've brought up that diminish doesn't work at all. Zao said "I'll have it checked".


    Talking about passive, anything is better than what spectres have. Tbh I find the reaper passive really good for spectres as well. Or maybe we could get a passive for better survivability?


    Those skills being mdmg was such a massive bug, it literally did like 20 dmg. And the animations are so long that a Trix can literally do more dmg by auto attacking instead of using harsh blow.

  • I still do believe Trix OD any class. PVE wise my 60T can OD any class in md hc. My spec can OD at DQ and COC. I did ML normal last week and a spec OD 4 glads. Others kqs, Trix would be more of a support class just to help stun/ice the mobs like HRW kq.


    Animations. I don't see a problem with animations. First off y'all complained about harsh blow and soul trap doing m.dmg now y'all saying animations too long. I think they're fine as is. I collect souls just fine w.o harsh blow

    I would love to see what kind of tests these were that you can come out and say it with confident that spec can od glads.

    How many runs? How did the glads play? (A glad that doesn't know how to play the class and constantly full hp or not) and did they have the same SC?


    Probably one of my most accurate tests were in OC since it's just bosses, done it many times with different glads, and I can tell you that spec comes nowhere near a good glad.

    As for DQ, I mentioned that spec get aggro easily (And if you think not then you are just talking nonsense) and then you get spam stun by karen, can't possibly see any spec OD'ing a glad at DQ not a chance.



    Don't see a problem with the animations? You really have a spec lol? or you just borrowed your friend's for 10mins?

    They have one of the longest animations out of all classes. Your dps straight up drops when you use some skills so you're better off spaming skills with quick animations.

  • Wait... You said over here that you OD glads but then in another comment you said glads OD specs?


    And right, trix have super long animations. Idk what this guy is talking about. Harsh blow, soul trap, killers order, soul slash. These skills literally have the character dancing and not outputting any damage for 2-3 seconds. I would argue that even master scheme and venomous strike has a longer animation than needed.